Old 22nd August 2019, 10:20 AM #31
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by TuneR
Correct for specifically this purpose, cooking and consumption. You start using it in your vehicle then it becomes a substitute fuel and if caught you become liable to customs/VAT at those rates and also penalties for not declaring etc.
:
The problem is how to police it.I could pay duty on 100ls then drive aorund for a year waving the receipt at the customs lads.
So they applied it across the board.
Kinda like how people were using the excuse of not having a tv to avoid the rte propaganda tax so they're taxing everyone with a smart phone,tablet,laptop etc.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:33 AM #32
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by efanton
This country is terible at producing electricity with low emissions. If you havent already read my previous post to see why.

Putting more electric cars on the road might reduce emissions from petrol and diesel but it will also result in more emissions from fuels used by power stations. Not having the correct data to hand I would imagine for bigger vehicles, or less fuel efficient vehicles, there would be a significant benefit, BUT does this hold true for smaller engined vehicles or more fuel efficient vehicles?
Yes - taking grid related emissions into account (~460gCo2/kWh) EV's are still cleaner by quite a margin as a kWh will give you about 5-7km in most cases. Some studies include energy transport efficiency in this metric which brings EV's up to ~90gCo2/km. This is, IMO, unjust as there is no account for fuel transport in the ICE landscape. That being said, even with this punitive rating in place, you're still well under even the smallest engines emissions under WLTP.

Originally Posted by efanton
What has not been discussed or published by the government or any of its agencies is how much CO2 and other green house gases would be created to produce enough energy to power different types of vehicles for a specific distance (lets for argument sake say 100km). How much emissions would be created from petrol for instance to propel a relatively fuel efficient 600cc motorcycle 100km. Then compare the emissions required (including transmission loss) to propel an electric motorcycle with similar performance over the same 100km distance.
See the answer above - that study has been done numerous times. SEAI presently have a calculator on their website which permits assessment on this basis. It's pretty cursory but it hits the main points. https://www.seai.ie/sustainable-solu...and-calculate/

Originally Posted by efanton
I fail to see how forcing people to go electric when electric vehicles have such limited ranges makes any sense. The demands on the gird at peak times will force less environmentally friendly methods of electricity generation to be used to cover that increased demand.
If vehicles could be charged overnight when demands on the electric grid were lower, AND charged to a range capacity where they would not require a recharge or top up before the next night then I could be convinced.
That is the longerterm view. All of the new offerings in the BEV space have ranges exceeding 250km, and the Kia Soul has a WLTP rating above 400km. Point being that destination charging and not fast charging is going to be where the emphasis lies. That means being plugged in at home overnight, and whilst parked during office hours. Far from placing a strain on the grid this actually present a substantial grid asset in the form of dispatchable load and even, in the case of the new Leaf which has V2X as standard, virtual generation. There is even a scheme impending whereby cars may 'pay' for their parking/charging either in terms of money or arbitrage. In the case of the latter, this merely means that the car may be caused to start charging, stop charging, or start contributing by grid command. These calls would only ever last for a couple of minutes, nothing like long enough to perceivably impact on the battery state of charge, but with volume, for long enough to remove the need for open-cycle peaking plant on the bars.

Originally Posted by efanton
Bottom line for me is until I can see a clear comparison between emissions created by electricity and emission created by petrol for a given distance traveled I cannot support any initiative that forces members of the public to switch to an electric vehicle until such time as we are generating our electricity in a more environmentally way and the electric vehicles replacements have sufficient range for a full days use.
Again, see above, and the paper I linked earlier in the thread - and with regard to generating clean energy, as outline above, in the medium term (2021 is when it starts to kick off) EV's will actually be an asset in this regard. ASHP's for Res-H can also be similarly dispatched by grid command under smart-grid goals, and so their impact can be mitigated as well.

All told, whilst we'll need more capacity (see my answers below) slower response, closed-cycle, gas turbine solutions will be the go to for base load - Moneypoint, Tarbert, Clonbullogue, etc... can all go away. This will mean that our grid emissions will most likely remain unchanged despite rising energy production. Dispatchable assets such as those outline above will improve options wrt wind and solar integration, and I'd expect more battery storage to become a part of the landscape too along with the like of the flywheel systems presently in trial in Rhode.

Originally Posted by efanton
My own thoughts:
1: This country doesn't have the infrastructure to handle replacing the majority of ICE cars with EVs, i cant see it having it by 2030 either.
This is a valid concern. Right now we have 12GW of generating capacity on the Island and daily winter demand peaks at ~9GW. Switching Res-H and Transport to electrified alternatives will require an expansion on our present capacity. Whether or not this can be achieved by 2030 is a very important point to be discussed

Originally Posted by efanton
2: I cant see the government being OK with halving their tax bill on the motorists too if that change occurs. They'll replace it elsewhere.
Correct - see my post above for the most likely means of filling that particular hole in the finances.


Originally Posted by efanton
3: EVs are heavily subsidised atm; low VRT rates, BIK and little to no charge on electricity. They could be quiet expensive to buy and run if this was all removed and people prefer to shop at Tesco than local shops.
Correct, but then so are ICE. Fossil fuel subsidies globally are more than an order of magnitude greater than those afforded to EV. The more prudent approach is therefore to begin rolling back on the Fossil subsidy in tandem with EV.

Originally Posted by efanton
4: Old people (and bad drivers) would suck at driving autos with instant torque
That where we let the machines take over.

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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:38 AM #33
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by SoulX
So they applied it across the board.
So link to the legislation or stop talking shite.

Originally Posted by SoulX
Kinda like how people were using the excuse of not having a tv to avoid the rte propaganda tax so they're taxing everyone with a smart phone,tablet,laptop etc.
...the broadcast charge which, 5 years on, still hasn't actually been introduced you mean?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:46 AM #34
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by efanton
This country is terible at producing electricity with low emissions. If you havent already read my previous post to see why.
As an aside, the reason why we're so bad at producing energy with low emissions is specifically and demonstrably because of the presence of the Moneypoint (coal) and Tarbert (heavy oil) stations on the bars.

Towards the back end of 2018 Moneypoint was shut down for repairs and maintenance - our grid CO2 intensity dropped by damn near half as a result.
We managed to average in the region of 270gCo2/kWh for several months as I recall (I'll try find the actual numbers).

Furthermore, the only reason we need those plant at all is that they form a significant portion of our base load and we've insufficient cleaner plant (read 'CC Gas') to fill this gap and still maintain comfortable levels of rolling reserve.

So I would expect that the grid expansion plans will see a combination of arbitrage and CCGT plant spec'd to replace the 1.2gW total capacity afforded by the Moneypoint and Tarbert stations. Only issue with that will be that it ties us even farther into a single import, so as far as security of supply is concerned, it's a step away from where we want to be going. This also drives the narrative towards the resources off our west coast. On this account, the pragmatist in me knows that it makes sense to exploit them, the problem is that once we tap in there, we're effectively committed to using the lot of it whether we need to or not, and the 'green' in my can't get onboard with that - the question then becomes 'are shale gas imports from the US really any better of an option?....'

Like I said before - this shit is a lot more complicated than many people are willing to deal with.

*edit: I'll find those monthly numbers for last year, but until I do, this is also a nice little interface for exploring our daily performance.

**edit: THIS is where I had those results from last November but it doesn't keep a long term record.

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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:12 AM #35
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

"Are you joking? The private motorist is the majority of the population - it's the most effective lobby of them all!"

The private motorist may well be the majority of the population but he is also one of the most victimised members of said population. The private motorist is & always will be treated as nothing more than a cash cow. If the private motorist had an effective lobby (which he doesn't) then why are the roads in bits & why is he paying astronomical insurance premiums? Reality check time, methinks

"In principal this is true, however in reality it places a disproportionate burden on those with lower incomes; so no it's neither the fairest or the most equitable solution. It would be if we had an equitable society but as things stand the people with the money live closest to work and drive the newest and most efficient cars, so it's a bullshit notion from start to finish."

Utter nonsense! The principle of Road Tax (before it was diverted to become part of the government slush fund) was that it would contribute to the upkeep of our roads system. If I travel 50k kms. annually in my vehicle & you travel 10k kms. annually in your vehicle then it is only basic commonsense that I should pay more tax based on the simple fact that I am using the roads more. This doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the relative fuel efficiency of our individual vehicles though obviously it would be in our own best interests to have the most fuel efficient vehicles possible.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:58 PM #36
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
then why are the roads in bits & why is he paying astronomical insurance premiums?
Lack of organisation - people love to whinge but very few can be bothered to act. Precisely the same reason for poor voter turnout. The power is there, people are just happier to complain.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Utter nonsense! The principle of Road Tax (before it was diverted to become part of the government slush fund) was that it would contribute to the upkeep of our roads system.
Correct - but you don't pay road tax, you pay vehicle tax.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
If I travel 50k kms. annually in my vehicle & you travel 10k kms. annually in your vehicle then it is only basic common sense that I should pay more tax based on the simple fact that I am using the roads more.
You're confusing common sense with utopian idealism, and you're doing so on account of a drastic oversimplification of the structure of society.

Within the severely constrained context of your statement you're correct, but as soon as you start to include socioeconomic distributions your case falls apart very quickly.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
This doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the relative fuel efficiency of our individual vehicles...
...because you decided to remove that component from your thesis.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
...though obviously it would be in our own best interests to have the most fuel efficient vehicles possible.
...which your thesis assumes everyone has access too.


Now I'm not saying that there isn't a significant demographic of the population who do travel farther by choice and who should certainly pay more tax accordingly - but I am saying that you can't assume that everyone who travels farther does so by choice and not out of fiscal necessity.

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Old 22nd August 2019, 05:46 PM #37
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by Spoonman
Yes - taking grid related emissions into account (~460gCo2/kWh) EV's are still cleaner by quite a margin as a kWh will give you about 5-7km in most cases. Some studies include energy transport efficiency in this metric which brings EV's up to ~90gCo2/km. This is, IMO, unjust as there is no account for fuel transport in the ICE landscape. That being said, even with this punitive rating in place, you're still well under even the smallest engines emissions under WLTP.



See the answer above - that study has been done numerous times. SEAI presently have a calculator on their website which permits assessment on this basis. It's pretty cursory but it hits the main points. https://www.seai.ie/sustainable-solu...and-calculate/

Absolutely no reference to motorcycles or small vehicles of low engine capacity.

Compare a Ford Fiesta with a diesel engine (small car with high MPG) with a HYUNDAI Ioniq (fully electric not hybrid).
The Ford Fiesta produces 1.31 tonnes CO2 while the HYUNDAI Ioniq produces 0.89 tonnes CO2, making the difference 20.5% . A small but significant change it might be argued, but the difference in weight is also significant ford fiesta is about 1570 kg while HYUNDAI Ioniq is 1370 kg, the Ioniq being a fairly significant 12.75% lighter. If you had compared a fiesta and Ioniq of equal weights then that 20.5% reduction in emissions would dramatically drop. You could still argue that the lower improvement was still a justifiable case to force the use of electric cars only.

I suspect the my intuition will be shown to be right. As vehicles get smaller (both in weight and engine capacity) the benefit of going electric will also reduce significantly.

So why is there not data for motorcycles?
It is a fact that motorcycle engines are far more efficient than car engines. They are broadly twice as efficient when you compare like for like in terms of CC. Motorcycle engines produce FAR less CO2, in fact in some tests they produced 30% less CO2 emissions than comparably sized car engines.
Admittedly motorcycle engine do produce more hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen but that is the whole point of catalytic converters which mitigate these emissions.

In case you hadn't noticed this is a motorcycle forum. Show me the stats for electric motorcycles compared to petrol motorcycles and you might have an argument for electric motorcycles. I have tried to find that data from a reliable source and I cant.

I suspect the difference to be so small to the environment, especially when you compare the number of motorcycles regularly used on Irish roads, that forcing motorcyclist to switch to electric is based more on dogma than on environmental benefit.
In fact because electric motorcycles are silent and therefore less likely to be noticed they would not only be of no environmental benefit but instead a significant safety hazard
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Old 22nd August 2019, 09:15 PM #38
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by efanton
Absolutely no reference to motorcycles or small vehicles of low engine capacity.
Correct - as I said, it's very cursory

Originally Posted by efanton

{CAGE TALK}


Originally Posted by efanton
I suspect the my intuition will be shown to be right. As vehicles get smaller (both in weight and engine capacity) the benefit of going electric will also reduce significantly.
No doubt - less mass means less energy required to move - means less relative difference and more importantly, makes the lifecycle CO2 more driven by the manufacturing and disposal aspects. At present grid performance I'd be fairly certain that you're quite correct - as the grid cleans up that situation will change and I too would be very keen to see some research into where that tipping point lies.

Originally Posted by efanton
So why is there not data for motorcycles?
Because policy makers don't give a fuck about them - they're too small of a part of the problem in energy terms I expect.

Originally Posted by efanton
It is a fact that motorcycle engines are far more efficient than car engines. They are broadly twice as efficient when you compare like for like in terms of CC. Motorcycle engines produce FAR less CO2, in fact in some tests they produced 30% less CO2 emissions than comparably sized car engines.
Admittedly motorcycle engine do produce more hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen but that is the whole point of catalytic converters which mitigate these emissions.
I'd be very keen to see some supporting documentation in this regard.

Originally Posted by efanton
In case you hadn't noticed this is a motorcycle forum.
I'm well aware of exactly what this place is dude - I've been a part of it for more than a decade longer than you.

Originally Posted by efanton
Show me the stats for electric motorcycles compared to petrol motorcycles and you might have an argument for electric motorcycles. I have tried to find that data from a reliable source and I cant.
See above.

Originally Posted by efanton
I suspect the difference to be so small to the environment, especially when you compare the number of motorcycles regularly used on Irish roads, that forcing motorcyclist to switch to electric is based more on dogma than on environmental benefit.
In fact because electric motorcycles are silent and therefore less likely to be noticed they would not only be of no environmental benefit but instead a significant safety hazard
Then don't switch. I've a testbench unit in my garage (forktruck motors in a 600F2 chassis, not at all practical but fun to play with) and I've performed refits on 2 to date with another in the pipe (Vectix VX1's - decent electric maxi-scoot). I'll build or buy the first thing I can afford which approaches the brief of a fully faired commuter - won't need any convincing beyond the option to have one.

As regards stats then, what I can tell you is that the VX would do my commute for about €0.90 whereas my NC24 used to be about €6 and the TL is closer to €10! Gonna take a hulluvalotta tax to make up that gap.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:45 PM #39
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

"Correct - but you don't pay road tax, you pay vehicle tax."

......which has been my argument all along. We are taxed on vehicle ownership rather than on road usage. This is what makes our system so unfair & inequitable.

" Within the severely constrained context of your statement you're correct, but as soon as you start to include socioeconomic distributions your case falls apart very quickly."
"Now I'm not saying that there isn't a significant demographic of the population who do travel farther by choice and who should certainly pay more tax accordingly - but I am saying that you can't assume that everyone who travels farther does so by choice and not out of fiscal necessity."

Here's an inconvenient little fact for all of the greenies & the other political vermin: given their current prices & with the predicted discontinuation of grants currently available, nobody in the lower earning bracket could possibly afford to buy an EV. Also, given the current totally inadequate battery range of these vehicles buying an EV today would be the worst choice that you could make. As battery technology improves, which no doubt it will over the coming years, it will make the current crop of EVs & their relatively useless batteries totally obsolete.
The government has set a target of phasing out the sale of new internal combustion/compression ignition-engined vehicles by 2030. If/when that happens we may well see a situation where people in certain socio-economic groups (& I HATE using that type of language, we're all equals FFS) will never get to own a road vehicle due to their prohibitive cost & their total impracticality in a country which has such a widespread rural population. This would obviously increase pressure on public transport, where it exists. Of course that would suit the greens & the other lefty pond life because it would fit in nicely with their anti-rural, anti-farming, everybody-must-live-in-the-city, high taxation ideology. This could well become a symptom of the beginning of a new era of the 'haves' & the 'have-nots.' History has a habit of repeating itself, you know.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:57 PM #40
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
"Correct - but you don't pay road tax, you pay vehicle tax."

......which has been my argument all along. We are taxed on vehicle ownership rather than on road usage. This is what makes our system so unfair & inequitable.

" Within the severely constrained context of your statement you're correct, but as soon as you start to include socioeconomic distributions your case falls apart very quickly."
"Now I'm not saying that there isn't a significant demographic of the population who do travel farther by choice and who should certainly pay more tax accordingly - but I am saying that you can't assume that everyone who travels farther does so by choice and not out of fiscal necessity."

Here's an inconvenient little fact for all of the greenies & the other political vermin: given their current prices & with the predicted discontinuation of grants currently available, nobody in the lower earning bracket could possibly afford to buy an EV. Also, given the current totally inadequate battery range of these vehicles buying an EV today would be the worst choice that you could make. As battery technology improves, which no doubt it will over the coming years, it will make the current crop of EVs & their relatively useless batteries totally obsolete.
The government has set a target of phasing out the sale of new internal combustion/compression ignition-engined vehicles by 2030. If/when that happens we may well see a situation where people in certain socio-economic groups (& I HATE using that type of language, we're all equals FFS) will never get to own a road vehicle due to their prohibitive cost & their total impracticality in a country which has such a widespread rural population. This would obviously increase pressure on public transport, where it exists. Of course that would suit the greens & the other lefty pond life because it would fit in nicely with their anti-rural, anti-farming, everybody-must-live-in-the-city, high taxation ideology. This could well become a symptom of the beginning of a new era of the 'haves' & the 'have-nots.' History has a habit of repeating itself, you know.
I have a feeling all this caper will be forgotten when the next recession hits,
and that's not too far away
Same thing happened last time round.
BTW,they are planning to ban sales of s/h ice vehicles soon after the ban on new stuff.
So snatch up all them RDs,RGs and KHs while you can.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:11 AM #41
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by SoulX
I have a feeling all this caper will be forgotten when the next recession hits,
and that's not too far away
Same thing happened last time round.
BTW,they are planning to ban sales of s/h ice vehicles soon after the ban on new stuff.
So snatch up all them RDs,RGs and KHs while you can.
All only a matter of time, Liam
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:39 AM #42
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
......which has been my argument all along. We are taxed on vehicle ownership rather than on road usage. This is what makes our system so unfair & inequitable.
I understand that taxation at source, or 'polluter pays' mentality would make sense if everyone were on an equal footing to begin with - I do. The thing is that they aren't.

In reality, the only equitable system is one where your income tax is the *only* tax you pay - the truth is that this causes plenty of problems of its own as well.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki

Here's an inconvenient little fact for all of the greenies
...why am I being branded a 'greeny'? Nothing in the above has anything to do with green party politics - in fact the most of it is explaining the constraints in which the political system in general is operation.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
... & the other political vermin:
Curious to know which ones you regard as not being vermin at this point.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
given their current prices & with the predicted discontinuation of grants currently available, nobody in the lower earning bracket could possibly afford to buy an EV.
Correct


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Also, given the current totally inadequate battery range of these vehicles buying an EV today would be the worst choice that you could make.
We must be talking about bikes here then yes? because the cages are actually doing pretty well these days. If we are constraining the conversation to bikes then you're doubly correct as most people wouldn't consider an EV motorcycle at current prices even with the grants.

How many Zero's and Livewire's have you seen rocking about the place?

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
As battery technology improves, which no doubt it will over the coming years, it will make the current crop of EVs & their relatively useless batteries totally obsolete.
Because you couldn't possible refit better batteries - no, no, that's not an option at all.. nobody's ever done anything like that already...

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
The government has set a target of phasing out the sale of new internal combustion/compression ignition-engined vehicles by 2030. If/when that happens we may well see a situation where people in certain socio-economic groups (& I HATE using that type of language, we're all equals FFS)
...except that you have said it, because it really is a thing, so you know, well done.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
... will never get to own a road vehicle due to their prohibitive cost & their total impracticality in a country which has such a widespread rural population. This would obviously increase pressure on public transport, where it exists. Of course that would suit the greens & the other lefty pond life because it would fit in nicely with their anti-rural, anti-farming, everybody-must-live-in-the-city, high taxation ideology. This could well become a symptom of the beginning of a new era of the 'haves' & the 'have-nots.' History has a habit of repeating itself, you know.
Wow! it's actually hard to keep up with the number of things that wrong in the above. Starting with the range assertion, it's already good and constantly getting better, that's a fact. Then there's the total contradiction posed by referencing how earlier vehicles will be useless yet those to come will be unaffordable - there's an entire spectrum of second hand machinery in between. We're already seeing dealers unable to meet demand for the second hand market, that's a fact.

As for anti-rural, I'm rural born and bred. Couldn't live in a city. Live in a one off, rural build on an acre of ground. A house that I designed to be as efficient as was achievable in my budget. The facts are however that one off dwellings are less efficient in energy terms (both operational and embodied), and farming practices are highly carbon intensive. That's not green ideology, that the simple truth.

As for a new era of the 'haves' & the 'have-nots.' - what precisely would be new about that? I'm not defending the status quo here but a few lines back you were saying 'we're all equal FFS'. Not to mention you seem to believe that all people have a meaningful choice available to them with regard to the price bracket of the car they drive and the location of the home they live in.

So, as soon as you're ready to put a consistent narrative together, please be my guest and I'll be happy to read it but right now you're talking almost as much shite as SoulX
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Old 23rd August 2019, 11:06 AM #43
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

This may be of interest.
https://docfinder.bnpparibas-am.com/...D-EF65EAD09A7F
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Old 23rd August 2019, 09:30 PM #44
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by Spoonman
So, as soon as you're ready to put a consistent narrative together, please be my guest and I'll be happy to read it but right now you're talking almost as much shite as SoulX
Aww,and there I was thinking you'd forgotten about me,

Couple of points,
First and foremost,I'm fully aware that there's no point fighting this because it's coming like it or not.
Too many people have too much invested in this to let it fail.Even oil companies are jumping on the band-wagon at this stage.
Do you think it's a coincidence that denis o'brien flogged his filling staion empire last year?
Next up,people seem to think I'm anti-ev because I'm a "petrol-head",I don't really know what that means but I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them.I love bikes,be it an ancient french moped or an arse up,head down sports bike,I don't care.As long as it's got an engine,be it 2 stroke,4 stroke,petrol,diesel,nuclear fusion or whatever,I don't care.I'd love an electric vehicle if they really did all they promise,but tbh they're nowhere near practical atm and I cant see them ever being practical.The issue is the powers that be are trying to slot evs into a world built around ice and they don't fit.It's simple as that.We need to go back to the drawing board,blue-sky thinking I believe the arseholes call it.There are actually some very simple things that could be done to eradicate the main issues but it seems they're too simple and these idiots in charge can't see them.Too busy worrying about I-fone connectivity and self-driving I suppose.
Another thing people assume is I'm anti-ev beacuse of my job.Thats actually funny,I cant wait to get away from this shite,30 years of this crap has me utterly ball-axed,physically and mentally.As soon as I find something better,the tools are going over the ditch.If I'm still above ground in 10 years I'll hopefully be doing something easier maybe something simple like nuclear physics or rocket science,
Finally,I really do hope evs take off and everyone's driving them in 10yrs,more petrol for me
BTW,did you know Henry Ford looked at evs while he was producing the model T because he was convinced oil was going to run out.If he had been correct,we'd have run out sometime in the 1940s.
I'd love to revisit this thread in 10yrs just to see how it all panned out
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Old 25th August 2019, 07:05 PM #45
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by Spoonman
I understand that taxation at source, or 'polluter pays' mentality would make sense if everyone were on an equal footing to begin with - I do. The thing is that they aren't.

In reality, the only equitable system is one where your income tax is the *only* tax you pay - the truth is that this causes plenty of problems of its own as well.




...why am I being branded a 'greeny'? Nothing in the above has anything to do with green party politics - in fact the most of it is explaining the constraints in which the political system in general is operation.




Curious to know which ones you regard as not being vermin at this point.



Correct




We must be talking about bikes here then yes? because the cages are actually doing pretty well these days. If we are constraining the conversation to bikes then you're doubly correct as most people wouldn't consider an EV motorcycle at current prices even with the grants.

How many Zero's and Livewire's have you seen rocking about the place?



Because you couldn't possible refit better batteries - no, no, that's not an option at all.. nobody's ever done anything like that already...



...except that you have said it, because it really is a thing, so you know, well done.



Wow! it's actually hard to keep up with the number of things that wrong in the above. Starting with the range assertion, it's already good and constantly getting better, that's a fact. Then there's the total contradiction posed by referencing how earlier vehicles will be useless yet those to come will be unaffordable - there's an entire spectrum of second hand machinery in between. We're already seeing dealers unable to meet demand for the second hand market, that's a fact.

As for anti-rural, I'm rural born and bred. Couldn't live in a city. Live in a one off, rural build on an acre of ground. A house that I designed to be as efficient as was achievable in my budget. The facts are however that one off dwellings are less efficient in energy terms (both operational and embodied), and farming practices are highly carbon intensive. That's not green ideology, that the simple truth.

As for a new era of the 'haves' & the 'have-nots.' - what precisely would be new about that? I'm not defending the status quo here but a few lines back you were saying 'we're all equal FFS'. Not to mention you seem to believe that all people have a meaningful choice available to them with regard to the price bracket of the car they drive and the location of the home they live in.

So, as soon as you're ready to put a consistent narrative together, please be my guest and I'll be happy to read it but right now you're talking almost as much shite as SoulX
Before you or anybody else forms the misguided opinion that this is some form of personal attack on you let me assure you quite categorically that it is not. I neither know nor care anything about your personal political outlook. It's totally irrelevant to me. You seem to have missed the point of my comments entirely. At the end of the day as the OP pointed out, the green agenda is the new tax agenda. We are being peddled a load of lies so as to have the scene set for the latest tax grab. The Irish motorist has traditionally been subjected to a raft of totally unfair & inequitable taxes for no reason other than the fact that he is the proverbial fish in a barrel. The motorist is the most put-upon taxpayer in this country & this will continue from the fossil fuel era into the EV era. Make no mistake about that. It should go without saying that obviously users of EVs will have to pay to use public charging stations, after all electricity is their 'fuel' & it isn't free. However that won't generate enough revenue to make up the shortfall caused by the changeover from fossil fuel. So new ways will be devised to make the motorist pay & no doubt these measures will be applied in the usual sledgehammer, one-size-fits-all manner irrespective of what use a motorist makes of the public roads. My own guess is that we will see massive increases in both VRT on new vehicles & equally massive increases in annual road tax. Another scummy form of taxation that will undoubtedly find it's way here will be the so-called 'congestion tax' if you want to take your vehicle into large urban areas. It's sad but it will almost be interesting to see what the Leinster House boffins will come up with to penalise the innocent motorist who depends on his private vehicle to live his day to day life.

BTW taking you up on one of your comments that older EVs might be retro-fitted with more efficient or longer lasting batteries. Maybe it's been tried on a purely experimental basis here & there but it ain't happening at manufacturing level at the moment at any rate. At the rate of change of technologies it simply may not be possible even though that could change at some time in the future. However, remember that new vehicles are built to sell rather than to last a long time. Speaking as someone who has worked in the mainstream motor trade or derivatives thereof for the past forty five years I can tell you that it would be extremely naive of anyone to think that providing cheap upgrades to older vehicles would have any place in the hard-arse economic policies of the manufacturers. Why do vehicles undergo model changes every few years? To render the older model obsolete, of course!
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:11 AM #46
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by efanton
its total pie in the sky.
less than 5% of the electricity generated comes from clean fuels (wind, hydro, solar etc)
Turf accounts for 10%
Coal for 18%
Gas 51%
Oil 0.8%
You've read the SEAI figures wrong. Those percentages are of the energy inputs to generate electricity. While renewables accounted for less than 5% of the inputs they generated over 30% of the electricity.

Actually the renewable inputs were more like 20% because you ignored wind at 13.5% of the inputs and hydo at 1.5%.

Just goes to show how wasteful fossil fuel electricity generation is - between half and two thirds of the fossil fuel used to generate electricity is wasted in the cooling towers.

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Old 27th August 2019, 10:39 AM #47
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
BTW taking you up on one of your comments that older EVs might be retro-fitted with more efficient or longer lasting batteries ....., remember that new vehicles are built to sell rather than to last a long time.
Correct - and I just had that precise discussion with Nissan Ireland a few weeks back (I've replace the battery in mine once already and am gearing up to make a replacement which 'can't be done' in the coming months).

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Speaking as someone who has worked in the mainstream motor trade or derivatives thereof for the past forty five years I can tell you that it would be extremely naive of anyone to think that providing cheap upgrades to older vehicles would have any place in the hard-arse economic policies of the manufacturers.
Whilst this is fair, manufacturers have very little to do with it - There are vehicles which haven't been built or had parts built for them for decades still about the place - and those vehicles have all the problems that come with an engine to contend with. EV drivetrain components are far more durable, and whilst you can be sure that some measure of 'design of obsolescence' will be built in as the manufacturing processes become more established, much like the current auto trade, this will be swiftly followed by the development of community and trade solutions. We're already seeing this happening with both the Leaf and the Tesla's (and if the latter can be achieved then anything else is practically an open book!).

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Why do vehicles undergo model changes every few years? To render the older model obsolete, of course!
Absolutely - no question about it, there's nothing more than that to it. Vast majority of vehicles in this country only have one problem and that's the first few numbers on their licence plate. Again though, the point is moot, just as the expertise to keep ICE vehicles on the road have been built up, so too will those required to do the same for EV's - as I said, I'm already doing it and the knowledge that I'm exploiting to get it done isn't merely my own by any means, there's a tremendous and incredibly potent community out there already.



Getting back to the original Tax thing though - this segue came on the back of the notion of the hole that EV's are going to put into the coffers. Thing is there won't be a hole at all if the correct transitional taxation mechanisms are deployed. These will, in my expectation at least, include an increase in taxes relating to ICE vehicles (phasing in of carbon taxes) as the EV market matures, the second hand market gets established, and people move past their obsession with 'the charging infrastructure'; Public charging for EV's will no longer be free, destination (ie: slow) chargers will make up the bulk and will provide good value as the cost of charging will be supplemented by the grid benefits realisable from same. Fast charging will be privatised and charges will be broadly comparable to standing fossil mileage rates or maybe a little more. Home chargers will have their own power meter and your utility bill will include a new section relating to energy consumption for transport use - this will be taxed such that it is competitive against ICE running costs. Your home charging arrangement will also permit arbitrage and home storage which can be used to offset energy use away from peak rates (good for the grid and for your pocket) so there will be means to 'extract best value' from the vehicle even while it's parked and doing nothing else.

Ultimately the usage costs of EV's will come to be competitive against, but more-or-less inline with, current ICE usage costs. This means that as far as the consumer is concerned, nothing changes. However, and here is where there is some merit to the notion of them screwing us a bit, the amount of tax they can extract from the wholesale energy price in bringing it even to about 80% of the price of conventional fuels, is immense. So that could go two ways and you could certainly be forgiven for expecting the one where they increase the tax take substantially - given that there'll be no 'real' impact to your pocket though, the only concern at that point is whether we, the plebeians, see any benefit from this increased tax take.

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Old 27th August 2019, 01:50 PM #48
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
Correct - and I just had that precise discussion with Nissan Ireland a few weeks back (I've replace the battery in mine once already and am gearing up to make a replacement which 'can't be done' in the coming months).


Oh, it can be done alright if it's just a 'one for one' battery swap but as technology advances through the years there will certainly come a time when fitting a newer, more efficient battery to an older vehicle will be pointless because the vehicle's electronics won't be equipped to make full use of the newer battery.

[I][I]Whilst this is fair, manufacturers have very little to do with it - There are vehicles which haven't been built or had parts built for them for decades still about the place - and those vehicles have all the problems that come with an engine to contend with. EV drivetrain components are far more durable, and whilst you can be sure that some measure of 'design of obsolescence' will be built in as the manufacturing processes become more established, much like the current auto trade, this will be swiftly followed by the development of community and trade solutions. We're already seeing this happening with both the Leaf and the Tesla's (and if the latter can be achieved then anything else is practically an open book!).

I have experience of working in an area where EVs are used in an industrial context i.e., forklifts & associated load handling systems. The electric motors on most, though not all of those machines can be overhauled & rebuilt in the same way that you can overhaul a dynamo, alternator or starter motor. However that is one area that I haven't ever heard being discussed regarding passenger EVs. If the starter motor on my bike stopped working I could overhaul it. However I haven't heard anybody saying what would happen if the drive motor of an electric bike or other electric passenger vehicle gave up the ghost. Could it be overhauled or would it only be fit for the bin? All of these things need to be considered carefully. It is a genuine concern of mine that as things stand at the moment EVs are entirely beyond the reach of a large section of the population (through no fault of their own, let it be said) & with the further roll-out of EVs & the impending demise of ICE vehicles we are facing into an era of 'transport poverty'. This is a real concern whether we like it or not. This will also trickle down into the second-hand vehicle market. If you are looking to buy a second-hand EV a five year old vehicle isn't a very attractive prospect when you might well be facing the replacement of the battery within a very short space of time after buying the vehicle.

Getting back to the original Tax thing though - this segue came on the back of the notion of the hole that EV's are going to put into the coffers. Thing is there won't be a hole at all if the correct transitional taxation mechanisms are deployed. These will, in my expectation at least, include an increase in taxes relating to ICE vehicles (phasing in of carbon taxes) as the EV market matures, the second hand market gets established, and people move past their obsession with 'the charging infrastructure'; Public charging for EV's will no longer be free, destination (ie: slow) chargers will make up the bulk and will provide good value as the cost of charging will be supplemented by the grid benefits realisable from same. Fast charging will be privatised and charges will be broadly comparable to standing fossil mileage rates or maybe a little more. Home chargers will have their own power meter and your utility bill will include a new section relating to energy consumption for transport use - this will be taxed such that it is competitive against ICE running costs. Your home charging arrangement will also permit arbitrage and home storage which can be used to offset energy use away from peak rates (good for the grid and for your pocket) so there will be means to 'extract best value' from the vehicle even while it's parked and doing nothing else.

Ultimately the usage costs of EV's will come to be competitive against, but more-or-less inline with current ICE usage costs. This means that as far as the consumer is concerned, nothing changes. However, and here is where there is some merit to the notion of them screwing us a bit, the amount of tax they can extract from the wholesale energy price in bringing it even to about 80% of the price of conventional fuels, is immense. So that could go two ways and you could certainly be forgiven for expecting the one where they increase the tax take substantially - given that there'll be no 'real' impact to your pocket though, the only concern at that point is whether we, the plebeians, see any benefit from this increased tax take.


My concern exactly. The likelihood of Joe Soap deriving any benefit from 'one size fits all' taxation is minuscule to say the least. And past experiences have shown us that this is the way that new taxes will be applied. Because at the end of the day it is what it says on the tin: taxation for no other purpose than to generate revenue.
However I don't see the 'obsession with the charging infrastructure' ever going away given the fact that Ireland consists of a largely rural community (maybe not in actual numbers but definitely in dispersal). If (when) EVs become the norm are we going to see a situation where there will be 100 charging points installed at, say, Ballybunion or Kinsale? If not, will people continue to visit those places? All of those factors have horrendous implications for the future of the country but it doesn't appear that anybody wants to discuss them. In the classic political manner, awkward questions are always ignored.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:11 PM #49
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

just build 3 or 4 big fuck off nuclear power plants and be done with it, I believe it is the greenest energy as well so the tree huggers can love it too
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Old 28th August 2019, 03:31 PM #50
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
there will certainly come a time when fitting a newer, more efficient battery to an older vehicle will be pointless because the vehicle's electronics won't be equipped to make full use of the newer battery.
...yet we recondition classic vehicles all the time.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
I have experience of working in an area where EVs are used in an industrial context i.e., forklifts & associated load handling systems. The electric motors on most, though not all of those machines can be overhauled & rebuilt in the same way that you can overhaul a dynamo, alternator or starter motor. However that is one area that I haven't ever heard being discussed regarding passenger EVs. If the starter motor on my bike stopped working I could overhaul it. However I haven't heard anybody saying what would happen if the drive motor of an electric bike or other electric passenger vehicle gave up the ghost. Could it be overhauled or would it only be fit for the bin?
They're generally brushless drives but apart from that, yes. you can rewind them, replace bearings, replace encoders, etc.. no problem. Where PM motors are used the magnets are generally in the rotor rather than the stator and they're embedded, so exposure of the rotor to temperatures significantly in excess of ~120C will cause irreparable demagnitisation, but beyond that, yes they're fully servicable. The absence of brushes however means there no carbon fouling; the brushless drive means that they don't overload under stall conditions; and they're thermally monitored so the likelyhood of overheating is slim - so bottom line is that they don't tend to need nearly as much servicing to begin with.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
...It is a genuine concern of mine that as things stand at the moment EVs are entirely beyond the reach of a large section of the population (through no fault of their own, let it be said)
Through precisely as much fault of their own as it is it that they can't service an engine to begin with you mean.

The information is out there - readily and freely available. Just as it is for anything to do with ICE. The only thing missing is the desire to learn something new.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
...& with the further roll-out of EVs & the impending demise of ICE vehicles we are facing into an era of 'transport poverty'. This is a real concern whether we like it or not. This will also trickle down into the second-hand vehicle market. If you are looking to buy a second-hand EV a five year old vehicle isn't a very attractive prospect when you might well be facing the replacement of the battery within a very short space of time after buying the vehicle.
It's no less attractive than buying a ICE with no service history. In fact, the substantial reduction in available failure modes, coupled with the level of CANbus reporting means that there's far less uncertainty in secondhand EV's than there is in any ICE equivalent.

As to the age, that's not nearly as big a factor as the mileage. Li batteries don't age on the shelf the way that Pb do. The ones in use these days pretty much only degrade with use (cycle count), so the 'might' up above there is actually entirely redundant - you'll know precisely what it's capable of and you'll have a very good idea of how long it will be capable of doing it.

What it comes down to far more than anything else is the residual range and your own personal requirements.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
My concern exactly. The likelihood of Joe Soap deriving any benefit from 'one size fits all' taxation is minuscule to say the least.
..but 'polluter pays' is a 'one size fits all' solution.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
And past experiences have shown us that this is the way that new taxes will be applied.
Selective past experiences. USC, PSO, PAYE and PRSI are all progressive and have seen at least as much movement as consumption based taxes in recent years.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Because at the end of the day it is what it says on the tin: taxation for no other purpose than to generate revenue.
...yes - but there's absolutely nothing incorrect about the state generating revenue to provide services for its populace - in fact that's one of the most fundamental governmental responsibilities

What we're really railing against in this country is the value which we see for that revenue - not the need for the revenue itself.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
However I don't see the 'obsession with the charging infrastructure' ever going away given the fact that Ireland consists of a largely rural community
...which it isn't these days - and is becoming increasingly less so.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
(maybe not in actual numbers but definitely in dispersal).
...which becomes redundant with increasing range - show me a rural household which can't charge at home and needs more than 300km every day without any opportunity to do so.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
If (when) EVs become the norm are we going to see a situation where there will be 100 charging points installed at, say, Ballybunion or Kinsale?
Distributed about the hotel car parks, towns and campsites? Yes, I don't see why not.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
If not, will people continue to visit those places?
A pal of mine just spent 3 weeks on holiday, camping, in France with his wife and 2 kids in their 40kW Leaf. 2000km over the course of the trip and looking forward to doing it again next year - and france's charging landscape is far worse than ours!

So yes - yes they certainly will.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
All of those factors have horrendous implications for the future of the country but it doesn't appear that anybody wants to discuss them. In the classic political manner, awkward questions are always ignored.
Except people do discuss them - all the time in fact. You're just not talking to the right people.

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Old 28th August 2019, 03:51 PM #51
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Oh, it can be done alright if it's just a 'one for one' battery swap but as technology advances through the years there will certainly come a time when fitting a newer, more efficient battery to an older vehicle will be pointless because the vehicle's electronics won't be equipped to make full use of the newer battery.
Just revisiting this point - what I've done to date was a 'one for one' swap. What I'm gearing up for in the near future is not. I am specifically circumventing the limitations of the vehicles electronics in order to fit the 181 40kWhr pack in to replace the '11 24kWh pack (I can provide in depth details if you like but suffice to say this requires a modification to a current sensor and the hijacking of some select CAN messages from the battery controller - nothing mental). So, again, it's all achievable, just as it is with any modern ICE.

*edit - and PS: the hardware for the 'CAN jacking' isn't something I've had to come up with myself. A fella in the Netherlands can up with that, I'm just getting him to program it to meet my needs and send it over. So it's not like it's 'just me' that can do this sort of thing.

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Old 28th August 2019, 10:53 PM #52
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

They will legalise most illegal drugs and make a fortune out of that tax and theyll jack up the tax on electricity on the loss they make on petrol and diesel...simple
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Old 29th August 2019, 09:05 AM #53
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

The auld fella loves his Tesla which he has had for a few years now.
Biggest issue he had when visiting Ireland was people parking on the chargers when fully charged.........Some form of penalty needs to be introduced in these situations.
This happened mostly when he was in Cork.
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Old 29th August 2019, 09:20 AM #54
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by woodsman
Biggest issue he had when visiting Ireland was people parking on the chargers when fully charged.........Some form of penalty needs to be introduced in these situations.
Yup, this is a major issue and restricts the value achievable from the existing infrastructure immensely. If he thinks it's bad with a Tesla, try living with a machine that only has ~120km range to begin with.

This will change as charges are introduced for the fast charging network. It's trending towards a 'per minute' fee, which is a little inequitable as some types charge faster than others, but it is the most effective in terms of preventing people hogging them.
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Old 29th August 2019, 09:35 AM #55
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Another thing that needs looking at is charging facilities on ferries.....,. It’s an ideal time to plug in when the vehicle is stationary.
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Old 29th August 2019, 12:15 PM #56
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki View Post
"...It is a genuine concern of mine that as things stand at the moment EVs are entirely beyond the reach of a large section of the population (through no fault of their own, let it be said)
Through precisely as much fault of their own as it is it that they can't service an engine to begin with you mean.

The information is out there - readily and freely available. Just as it is for anything to do with ICE. The only thing missing is the desire to learn something new."


That isn't the point I was trying to make. I mean affordability which will impact the hardest on lower earners, people unable to work due to health conditions, etc.

"..but 'polluter pays' is a 'one size fits all' solution."

It is but in a totally disproportionate manner in this country. If it was administered in a fair manner, vehicles would be taxed on mileage covered (i.e., the tax would be charged on the fuel used) rather than our annual vehicle tax grab. Actually, if all road vehicles were EVs & the tax was placed on re-charging this would be a more equitable method than the current set-up. In spite of this I can't imagine a situation where the current vehicle tax system will just stay static with EVs being on the lowest band especially as more & more EVs are likely to come on stream in the next few years.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki View Post
"If (when) EVs become the norm are we going to see a situation where there will be 100 charging points installed at, say, Ballybunion or Kinsale?

Distributed about the hotel car parks, towns and campsites? Yes, I don't see why not."


But the time to do this is NOW, not in five or ten years time. It will be too late to start the roll-out of adequate numbers of charging points across the country by the time 25% of private road vehicles are EVS. We always seem to have the unhappy knack of being 'a day late & a dollar short' around here when it comes to providing essential services.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki View Post
"All of those factors have horrendous implications for the future of the country but it doesn't appear that anybody wants to discuss them. In the classic political manner, awkward questions are always ignored.

Except people do discuss them - all the time in fact. You're just not talking to the right people".


If this was true then every local authority in the country would publish (or should have already published) a list of proposed charging points in it's area with a precise date by which those charging points would be up & running & available to members of the public. This alone would be of great benefit to people considering buying an EV as it would remove at least some of the uncertainty regarding access to charging points when they must travel for work, etc.
Just as an anecdote, I live in Carrigaline, Co. Cork which has a population of 16k approx. in it's catchment area. At present there is ONE charging point in the public car park in the town & that's it. Also at present I only know one person who has changed over to an EV. He is a retired person who does little mileage nowadays.
One final anecdote: an acquaintance of mine who happens to be a politician in one of the Government parties undertook a journey in an EV from Kinsale to Leinster House last year. This journey was a Government-promoted advertisement for the benefits of changing to an EV. He made it as far as Junction 14 on the M7, which is in the Portlaoise-Monasterevin area. He had to pull into the service area & put the vehicle on charge for two hours before he could complete his journey. What would the implications of that fact be for next Sunday with thousands of people heading to Croke Park from Co. Kerry?

Last edited by My First Suzuki; 29th August 2019 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 29th August 2019, 02:44 PM #57
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Re: Walter Mitty green ideas

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
That isn't the point I was trying to make. I mean affordability which will impact the hardest on lower earners, people unable to work due to health conditions, etc.
The people who have the cheapest shittiest cars right now?
The cars with the highest maintenance costs and the worst efficiency?

...the people that you think it's fairer to burden with more 'polluter pays' type taxation owing to the fact that these are the people least likely to live close to where they work?

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
"..but 'polluter pays' is a 'one size fits all' solution."

It is but in a totally disproportionate manner in this country. If it was administered in a fair manner,
..you can't "fairly" administer a flat rate tax on a commodity. That's precisely the point I've been making. The reason for this is that those who need it, need it, and this form of taxation makes no allowance for their fiscal circumstances.


Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
vehicles would be taxed on mileage covered (i.e., the tax would be charged on the fuel used)
...which we already do and which is a leading component in the whole 'fuel poverty' landscape - because IT ISN'T ACTUALLY A FAIR WAY TO DO THINGS!

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
rather than our annual vehicle tax grab.
This much I can at least agree with given the absence of viable public infrastructural alternatives in many cases.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Actually, if all road vehicles were EVs & the tax was placed on re-charging this would be a more equitable method than the current set-up.
No, it would be almost precisely the same as the current setup.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
In spite of this I can't imagine a situation where the current vehicle tax system will just stay static with EVs being on the lowest band especially as more & more EVs are likely to come on stream in the next few years.
This much is true - the vehicle tax will likely be revised to something similar to the old rules where it was based on displacement/power.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Originally Posted by My First Suzuki View Post
"If (when) EVs become the norm are we going to see a situation where there will be 100 charging points installed at, say, Ballybunion or Kinsale?

Distributed about the hotel car parks, towns and campsites? Yes, I don't see why not."


But the time to do this is NOW, not in five or ten years time. It will be too late to start the roll-out of adequate numbers of charging points across the country by the time 25% of private road vehicles are EVS. We always seem to have the unhappy knack of being 'a day late & a dollar short' around here when it comes to providing essential services.
Agreed - and the EV community have been saying this for years now. The policy makers want to think of this as a 'chicken & egg' thing but it isn't, it's a 'build it and they will come' thing. That being said, the market will sort a lot of that in the coming years as hotels, shopping centers and campsites start to see the benefit of offering the services themselves. It's not like the standard chargers are actually that expensive.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Originally Posted by My First Suzuki View Post
Except people do discuss them - all the time in fact. You're just not talking to the right people".

If this was true then every local authority in the country would publish (or should have already published) a list of proposed charging points in it's area with a precise date by which those charging points would be up & running & available to members of the public. This alone would be of great benefit to people considering buying an EV as it would remove at least some of the uncertainty regarding access to charging points when they must travel for work, etc.
https://www.esb.ie/our-businesses/ec...arge-point-map

This resource doesn't include private or workplace charging options.
Whilst I do agree that councils could do with being more proactive on this front, it's unreasonable to put it all on them. Campuses like Google, Intel, Intercom, Trinity College, NUIM, ... have all put charging facilities in place and will scale them to meet the workplace demand.

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
Just as an anecdote, I live in Carrigaline, Co. Cork which has a population of 16k approx. in it's catchment area. At present there is ONE charging point in the public car park in the town & that's it. Also at present I only know one person who has changed over to an EV. He is a retired person who does little mileage nowadays.
Has nobody in Carrigaline got electricity at home no?
I've >280000km done in a Gen1 EV and for the first 5 years of ownership, my closest public charger was in Enfield train station 25km away and I've NEVER USED IT. So what's your point?

Originally Posted by My First Suzuki
One final anecdote: an acquaintance of mine who happens to be a politician in one of the Government parties undertook a journey in an EV from Kinsale to Leinster House last year. This journey was a Government-promoted advertisement for the benefits of changing to an EV. He made it as far as Junction 14 on the M7, which is in the Portlaoise-Monasterevin area. He had to pull into the service area & put the vehicle on charge for two hours before he could complete his journey. What would the implications of that fact be for next Sunday with thousands of people heading to Croke Park from Co. Kerry?
So wait - 2 years ago - you couldn't make it Kinsale to Leinster house without stopping. THAT'S your benchmark?

2 years ago the largest battery offering on the Irish market was ~32kWh IIRC. There are vehicles with literally twice that capacity available now and the price difference between what that cost then and what these cost now is minimal.

Personally, if I were going to drive from Kinsale to Leinster house daily then I'd likely stick with ICE if I hadn't the price of a Kona or a Leaf e+, on the other hand, if I'd a two car household and I was only making that journey occasionally, I'd be inclined to consider a secondhand EV for the daily stuff and keep the other car as an ICE for when I need the flexibility. Alternatively, maybe a PHEV would do the trick for me as a compromise, i3-REX for example.

Point is, there are plenty of options already if people want to make the change. For anyone who's actually looking for solutions to the problems their lifestyles are creating then those solutions are there. It's only those who will use any excuse to avoid the need to make a change who throw up these sorts of nonsensical problems.

I bough a gen1 EV back in 2012 to do a 1000km/week commuting from Westmeath to Dublin city center 6 days a week. Your lot would have told me I was mad (and in fact, many did precisely that). That vehicle is 7 years old now, running like a swiss watch, and it has literally met its purchase price in what I've not had to spend on petrol.

They work - they've been working for a long time now - and they're getting better every year; and that's a fact.

Last edited by Spoonman; 29th August 2019 at 02:49 PM.
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